Here’s a recording of a presentation I did this morning at a men’s meeting. It was about an hour of presentation and about 30 minutes of Q&A at the end. I also included the handout below. I hope this is helpful to you!
Why Don’t Jehovah’s Witnesses Partake?
MJF APOLOGETICS 
I think here we have to apply the common sense. If someone invites some persons to supper, it is absurd to say them that only a few can rightfully drink and eat, and the other ones must be only observers. Every time I attended the memorial in a kingdom hall I thought about it. Also, the Bible does not consider the case of mere observers in the Lord’s supper. This is an invention of the Watchtower Society since 1935. Of course, this Watchtower’s decision was without the holy spirit, because, according to Rutherford, he was in direct comunication with angels.
Octavio-
Yes, it is a pretty odd thing indeed. It’s one point that I hope I communicated clearly in my talk that the “do this” is qualified by only one action.
There was another aspect of this Watchtower doctrine that opened my eyes about its falsehood. The Watchtower Society published the book “Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand!”. There, the Society said that the great crowd does not reach a priestly status as the 144000. But, if you read the greek verse of Revelation 7.15, you will read that the great crowd is “EN TW NAW AUTOU” (in the NAOS of Him), that is, in the sanctuary of God. The greek word NAOS was used for the Jews to denote the place of the Jerusalem’s temple where only priests could rightfully enter. Nevertheless, the Society said, in the book “Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand!”, that the greek word NAOS denotes the earthly courtyard. This was a pretty lie to confuse the readers, because NAOS can’t include the courtyard. So, the great crowd can rightfully partake in the Lord’s supper as the 144000.
….Just to clarify my argument written above. You may see in the maps of Herod’s Temple and Solomon’s Temple. In both, NAOS (the main building) does not include any courtyard. For the Solomon’s temple I checked this fact by analyzing the Septuagint’s use of NAOS. So, as I see, the Watchtower is also intellectualy dishonest.
Hello Mike,
I think what so many miss is the fact that everlasting paradisaic life on earth is very much a part of God’s purpose for mankind and will come to fruition. However, I believe you miss the fact that Biblical precedent firmly establishs that the church will exist in heaven with Christ to act as kings, priests and judges. Therefore, there is by necessity the existence of two destinies for mankind, one earthly and one heavenly. Although one might argue that the heavenly ones, after their role as kings, priests and judges has been fulfilled, may return to earth, there is no conclusive scriptural revelation to make that a certainty.
Regards,
Rotherham
Rotherham-
If you took the time to listen to the whole thing, I greatly appreciate that.
I can’t be said to have missed anything unless it can be shown that these ones spend eternity in heaven. So far, nothing has convinced me that’s the case. I think all God’s true followers on the new earth is much more consistent and scripturally demonstrable.
Mike
I have few questions
1.What is the purpose of Judgement Day (whatever it may be to you) if one will already knows in their intermediate state what will be their final outcome. I mean if one goes to heaven in the intermediate state it no doubt reflects that they will live forever in paradise and vice versa? And what is the purpose of the resurrection in your eyes since you a re very much alive in heaven?
2. Are you as forceful in preaching and condemning to fellow church Trinitarian members who believe heaven is the final destination and the literalness of 144,00 being only fleshly Jews? Do you also condemn them as much ,as you do the Witnesses for their version, of a 2 class theology(Jews only 144,000 and great multitude Gentile Christians) as this has a far bigger reach in terms of hearers and recipients then the Witness version?
3.In 2 Corinthians 5:8 he calls being with the Lord home which you grant is the intermediate state in heaven? Does Paul have another home the will be longing for when he is in heaven?
Hi Rotherham
The word paradise(greek-paradeisō) is only mention a few times in the bible and in the new testament only associated with heaven, never does scripture offer the phrase like earthly paradise or paradise earth.
The “Paradise of God” is promised to first century Christians at Revelation and does not specify destination.
I would say that JWs throw in a red herring with the duel earthly/heavenly hope thing. It really does detract from the real issue with mankind, which is salvation from Sin and death. This is clearly by means of , first a renewed spirit by means of repentance, and secondly a new imperishable immortal body which we hope to dwell in at the resurrection, freeing us from the struggle we have in our present earthly, weak, mortal bodies.
The majority of JWs can not take comfort in 1 Cor 15:54 “When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
Also, 2 Cor 5:1”For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed”….
5 “For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling”
Our destination, wether you imagine some earthly or heavenly paradise is only secondary to the Gospel. The bible does not make of an issue out of it, why should we?
You have to deny Biblical precedent in a number of areas in order to not put the church in heaven. Regardless, to me personally anyway, seems academic either way.
Rotherham,
The church is in heaven. Paul spoke about this in Philippians 1 when saying he did not know whether to choose life or death, but in death he said he would depart and be with Christ. Until the resurrection the church is in heaven.
Granting for discussion purposes that there are two groups of Christians, nothing in that bible implies that some Christians are not in the new covenant, not born again and who should not partake. These are only assumptions.
A
Hello answers for JWs. Would you be insterested in discussing the issue formally at Truetheology.net? I could set it up. I think a proper identity of the great crowd and their destiny in Revelation 7, along with some other considerations could shed some light on the topic.
Rotherham,
I’m good with doing that here, but not there. Perhaps Mike Felker could start a new post and we could do it in the comments.
A
That would be fine afjw, but I would likely dulplicate the discussion on Truetheology.net if that’s ok. But it is entirely up to Mike if he wants that done here.
Regards,
Rotherham
I’m completely fine with it happening here. Let me know the details and I’ll create the post.
Please start a new thread Mike and I’ll let Rotherham make an opening statement on whatever aspect he’d like to cover.
Rotherham-
Please state the proposal and what you’d like me to describe in the post.
Hello Mike,
Maybe something along the lines of demonstrating that the great crowd is an earthly group of Chritsians in the last days.
Regards,
Rotherham
Rotherham-
I think you’ll need to be more specific and precise as you both affirm that to some degree. I just want to make the post very clear and have the parameters set.
How about “Do all Christians go to heaven?”
Regards,
Rotherham
Ok, I think the going to heaven one will be a good one to pursue.
The post is up and ready for commenting. I’ll leave it to you both to work everything out.
Or, “Are all Christians in the New Covenant?”
Rotherham
This view cannot be sustained longer.For me it came about when I had to the bible reading at Numbers 9:14 in the ministry school
Now lets read Numbers 9:14 states
“‘And if a foreign resident is residing with you, he should also prepare the Passover sacrifice to Jehovah.+ He should do so according to the statute of the Passover and its set procedure.+ There should exist one statute for you, both for the foreign resident and for the native of the land.’”+
Jehovah was emphatic there should exist only one statute for the alien resident and the natural Israelite
This is important you see in all the articles and the Society has said that the alien residents represent the great crowd and the 144,000 represent . And yet we see that even alien residents could partake of the Passover and if the Law of Moses was a shadow of things to come then it is obvious that the great crowd should partake as well.
The Passover was so important that even if a man was unclean under the law he was still obliged to eat it though in the NT there is a difference on this point.
Rotherham
In the debate:
I don’t agree with AJW views about the intermediary state as it is wrong and is basically the Protestant version of Catholic purgatory without the cleansing bits but where individuals already know their judgement before judgement day either way You say
/b>
Yet read Revelation 5:9,10 reads which is applied by the GB to refer to the 144,000
9 And they sing a new song,+ saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God+ out of every tribe and tongue* and people and nation,+ 10 and you made them to be a kingdom+ and priests to our God,+ and they are to rule as kings+ over the earth.”
I would like us to both have a discussion about the memorial on your site as we both share some basic correct fundamentals i .e, no immortal /conditional immortal soul,no intermediary state,no tritheistic god etc..Let me know
Rotherham
I don’t agree with AJW views about the intermediary state as it is wrong and is basically the Protestant version of Catholic purgatory without the cleansing bits but where individuals already know their judgement before judgement day either way You say
Revelation 7 is the description of a great crowd that is not designated as Israelites exclusively, but from every nation, Gentiles
Yet read Revelation 5:9,10 reads which is applied by the GB to refer to the 144,000
9 And they sing a new song,+ saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God+ out of every tribe and tongue* and people and nation,+ 10 and you made them to be a kingdom+ and priests to our God,+ and they are to rule as kings+ over the earth.”
I would like us to both have a discussion about the memorial on your site as we both share some basic correct fundamentals i .e, no immortal /conditional immortal soul,no intermediary state,no tritheistic god etc..Let me know
Hello Riven,
I think that would be a good discussion. Let me get some other discussions wrapped up and then I will set that up. It might be a few days though. I hope that is OK.
Regards,
Rotherham
I am fine with that Rotherham let me know. You can email me when you are ready rivenj55@gmail.com
Riven-
To answer your questions:
1. Actually, whether in this life or in the intermediate state, I think there can be just as much assurance of eternal life. In fact, John 5:24 states as much. So the purpose of the resurrection then is to fulfill God’s original purpose and plan, which is life forever on earth, not heaven. If they stay in heaven, then they aren’t fulfilling God’s purpose.
2. Actually, I am quite adamant with regards to my views on covenant theology and do strongly disagree with my fellow Christians on their view of dispensationalism and eschatology. You won’t see much of that on this blog/site because that’s just not my focus here. With that being said, I do believe the Watchtower’s two class theology to have far more devastating theological consequences than dispensationalism would. That is, denying Christ as mediator, the new birth not applying to all Christians, denying acceptance into the new covenant for most Christians, denying most Christians the right to partake of communion, etc. is far more problematic than whether God has a particular salvific plan for Jews or whether heaven or earth is the eternal hope. If you can show me that dispensationalism has more profound theological ramifications than the two class theology, then i’d love to hear it.
3. I don’t know what Paul will be longing for when he’s in heaven (assuming he’s there now). But Paul’s psychological state in heaven really isn’t of interest to me since Scripture doesn’t tell us what Paul is “longing” for in heaven. But what is of interest to me is what God’s eternal purpose is: dwelling with mankind on the new earth.
If you can show me that dispensationalism has more profound theological ramifications than the two class theology, then i’d love to hear it.
God still favors the Jews and saves them although they outright rejected and still reject Christ . I am not talking about the alleged future mass conversion , They will rebuild the temple rebuilt( along with sacrifices and their priesthood ,where does Christ’s sacrifice fit in here).
These sacrifices which are acceptable will “devastatingly” be stopped by Anti-Christ
Dispensationalism is heretical to the core for it supports haters of the Lord no matter what simply based on ethnicity
Forget misunderstandings of the new covenant they outright teach that Jews have favour even if they reject the person inaugurating the New Covenant. These is not taught to just 7 million it is to hundreds of millions
I wont even talk about the socio and political consequences of this gospel
This gospel has far more damaging consequences
Riven-
If *that* is what someone claims to believe, then I fully agree with you. I just dont personally know any dispensationalists who hold to what you described. If I did, you’d find me arguing against them just as strongly as i would a JW.
Mike are you telling me that dispensationalists do not hold to the view that Israel is still God’s nation?
Yes, but most dispensationalists do not believe that Jews can be saved or redeemed without Christ.
The question is why are they currently being shown favour if they rejecte Christ and God rejected them in 70AD. What is the current basis for God to show them favour?
And I mean if using the majority view of Dispensationalists who are trinitatarians it goes.
Jesus is God,
Jews reject Jesus
therefore Jews reject God
and yet
God favors Jews.
??
No argument there
Hello Riven,
I am attempting to wrap up the discussion with AFJW. I should be ready soon to begin our discussion.
Thanks for your patience.
Regards,
Rotherham
Good. Ready when you are.
Hello Riven,
Things should be ready for you to post.
Regards,
Rotherham
Hey Riven. Still there?
Regards,
Rotherham
Hi Mike ..my name is Otto scheidegger fr Jakarta /Indonesia. I’m retired and hv a lot of time to read the bible and other source of informations..basically take part issue interest me since I strongly believe that there is only one class unlike the watchtower teachings,.what i can understand that the 144.000 will be helping out the king on earth also the eleven apostles during the evening meal Jesus gave them the responsibility to be judges and it must be on earth too..all Yahweh plan is for the new order on earth for man kind,just as what Jesus told us in mathew 6:9-11 meaning let your kingdom come(come where?) on earth!! And if read John chapter 6/ read the whole chapter it clearly sounds that all can part take..also Jesus clearly asked for generations to come to conduct the lord’s evening meal until his second presence ..meaning to everyone who attended and accept /and have faith in Christ is allowed to take part (he said: DO THIS) not partial but the whole process. Thks and regards.
Hi Otto-
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts!
Thanks, well I should say Partake instead of take part.., just a minor correction. In additional re the 144k it is sealed by God how is it possible that everyone knows in the cong of Jw that the person is one of the 144k?? If it is SEALED as mentioned in the book of rev sure it must be something concealed and only God knows. They declare them selves publicly it is definitely in contrary with being sealed= secret.the word sealed equals secret as mentioned in strong’s concordance in the book of rev.