Podcast Episode 5: The anointed class and Christ as mediator

 

 

 

In this episode, I reviewed a recording that took place between a JW who supposedly works at the Watchtower headquarters and a Christian who is questioning the JW belief of the relationship between the anointed class and Jesus as the mediator.

https://michaeljfelker.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/podcast-aug25-2012.mp3″

Downloadable link HERE

22 thoughts on “Podcast Episode 5: The anointed class and Christ as mediator

  1. miken says:

    The Faithful and Discreet Slave Enigma youtube video above deals with why the slave class cannot contribute to JW’s doctrinal beliefs and who infact is this so called slave.

    It is the position that JW’s who are part of the ‘great crowd’ are not part of the new covenant and do not have Christ as their mediator. See below

    Questions From Remaders
    ● Is Jesus the “mediator” only for anointed Christians?
    The term “mediator” occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
    Moses was the “mediator” of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the “mediator of a new covenant” between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God” that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word “mediator” in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.

    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the “little flock” of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under “Mediator”; also God’s “Eternal Purpose” Now Triumphing for Man’s Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading “Leading the Way to a New Covenant”; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading “The New Covenant.”

    Watchtower April 1, 1979 page 31

    With regard to the 1919 claim, Don Cameron’s book Captives of a Concept (see aptives of a Concept website) demonstrates using the then Bible Students own publications and practices in 1919 and previously, that such a claim is untrue. Carl Sagan said ” extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”, Cameron shows the evidence is missing to substatiate the claim. However this claim has been repeated for so long and so often so as to have become an unquestioned truth for the vast majority of JW’s and their governing body rely on it to exercise their authority over 7 million JW’s.

  2. rotherham2 says:

    Hello Mike,

    Hebrews 8 tells us that the New Covenant is made with Israel. Who is this Israel referred to in your understanding?

    Regards,
    Rotherham

    1. theapologeticfront says:

      Hi Rotherham,

      Thanks for your comment and for stopping by. To answer your questions, I believe that Israel is fulfilled in the New Covenant church; in particular, all who belong to Christ (Gal. 3:29).

      1. rotherham2 says:

        Thankyou Mike,

        Then it is your view that all Christians belong to “spiritual” Israel?

        Regards,
        Rotherham

    1. theapologeticfront says:

      I really should write an article about this, as my view differs significantly from the common dispensationalist view that most evangelicals hold to.

      In summary, I believe the 144,000 and the “great crowd” consist of the same members. However, it may be that the 144,000 are a subset of the great crowd. I’m open to either view but prefer the former. The 144K comprise of what John “heard” (7:4), while the great crowd are what John “saw” (7:9). This is similar, though not an exact parallel, to Rev. 5:5-6 where John was told about a Lion but saw a Lamb. The description of what he was told about is different from what he saw, though still referring to the same person.

      I hope that makes some sense. It would definitely require a whole article to really develop this view but I think its the plainest reading of the text.

  3. rotherham2 says:

    Is the great crowd a subset of the 144,000, or are the 144,000 a subset of the great crowd in your view? The great crowd is said to come out of the great tribulation.

  4. rotherham2 says:

    Well, you said that the 144,000 is representative of all Christians, but the great crowd are those who come out of the great tribularion. Do all Christians come out of the great tribulation, which is an end times event?

    Regards,
    Rotherham

    1. theapologeticfront says:

      The only Christians who come out of the tribulation are those who lived during that time (I happen to think this happened in 70 A.D.). But again, regardless of which group you consider to be a subset, it hardly warrants a conclusion that these are two groups which will eternally reside in separate locations. Though i’m not dogmatic on this, I lean towards both being the same group but certainly representative of all true Christians and their righteous standing in virtue of being in Christ.

  5. rotherham2 says:

    Hello Mike,

    I don’t see how they could be the same group if one group is said to come out of the great tribulation, regardless of when you think that was. Those who come out of the great tribulation would hardly amount to all of true Christianity. I don’t see how you could coincide those two things.

    Regards,
    Rotherham

    1. theapologeticfront says:

      I don’t think that those who come out of the great tribulation are all Christians; i’m only suggesting the possibility that they represent true Christians. Even as a JW, you have to agree with this because not all non-anointed Christians go through the great tribulation, right? But my point is, just because a Christian doesn’t go through the tribulation (as I believe this happened in the first century) doesn’t mean they are somehow a different class of some kind.

  6. rotherham2 says:

    Hello Mike,

    I still think you’re missing my point. You said that the 144,000 and the great crowd are the same group, yet you also said that the 144,000 is a symbollic number for ALL Christians. It would seem that you would have to then view the great crowd as a SUBSET of the 144,000, not the other way around. From what you have said, the 144,000 would be the larger group that contains a smaller group that passes through the tribulation, which is a momentary event in history.

    Regards,
    Rotherham

    1. theapologeticfront says:

      I may be missing your point, so i’ll try to clarify mine again. The 144K and the great crowd are the same group. This singular group is representative of all true Christians in that they have their sins forgiven, are righteous before God, and will live forever on earth. But not all true Christians went through the great tribulation.

    1. theapologeticfront says:

      I think this is a very difficult discussion to have without the context of an article explaining my position in more detail. No, i’m not saying that its definitely my position that the CG is a subset of the 144K. I only mentioned that as a possibility, but clarified that I think they are the same group. The 144K is what John heard about; the CG is what John saw. Both are coming out of the tribulation since they are both the same group.

  7. rotherham2 says:

    Hello Mike,

    This isn’t getting any clearer for me. Are you now saying that the 144,000 also come out of the great tribulation just as does the great crowd? If they are the same group that comes out of the great tribulation, then they can’t represent all of true Christianity, because all of true Christianity does not come out of the great tribulation. Could you provide an illustration or something that might clear this up?

    Regards,
    Rotherham

    1. theapologeticfront says:

      Yes, the 144K come out of the great tribulation like the great crowd since they are the same group. But where you’re missing the point is that I don’t believe the represent all Christians in light of their coming out of the great tribulation; instead, they represent all Christians in light of their eternal dwelling place, righteous standing before God, etc.

      But again, even if the GC were a subset, it wouldn’t prove that they have a distinct eternal dwelling place from the 144K.

  8. rotherham2 says:

    Hello Mike,

    Earlier you stated that they represent all of Christianity. Now you calrify that by saying only in the fact that they share the same eternal dwelling place. The fact the great crowd is highly contrasted with the 144,000 in the context of Revelaion chapter 7, there is every good reason to believe that they are not the same group.

    The great crowd is said to be unnumbered and from every nation. The 144,000 are specifically mentioned as being from 12 tribes of Israel. Contradiction does not indicate equality. It indicates the exact opposite.

    Regards,
    Rotherham

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s