There is no doubt that the Watchtower was a bit confused as to whether or not 1975 would be the end. Nevertheless, they said what they said:
*** Awake! October 8 1968 pp. 14-15 ***
6,000 Years Nearing Completion […] The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the ‘last days’ have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. Today, many years later, we may ask, What does the phrase ‘the immediate future’ mean? How many years are ‘a few years at most’?…only seven more years from the autumn of 1968 to complete 6,000 full years of human history. That seven-year period will evidently finish in the autumn of the year 1975
But here they seem not so certain:
*** Watchtower 1968 May 1 pp.271-3 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
THE SEVENTH DAY
7 The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these “last days” will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ’s glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead!
8 Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows.” (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God’s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one’s salvation!
23 thoughts on “Did the Watchtower claim that 1975 would be the end?”
From Awake October 8, 1968 ref the meaning of the then world events page 4 “It shows that within a few years at most there WILL take place a climax in human affairs so gigantic that it WILL effect every person on earth, every man, woman and child.”
Also on page 4 ref the wicked world system “Time is fast running out for it! It is much later for this world than you may think! Indeed, it has only a few more years of existence left.!”
On page 14 it is stated “The 1970’s WILL CERTAINLY see the most critical times mankind has ever known.” (capitals added)
The whole of the October 8, 1968 Awake issue entitled ’Is It Later Than You Think?’ was designed to raise expectations that the end of the current human world systems was imminent and likely to occur in the year 1975. No wonder this magazine is not on the current Watchtower CD Rom!
Neither is the Awake issue of May 22, 1969 page 15 to quote “ If you are a young person, you need to face the FACT that you WILL NEVER GROW OLD in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfilment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. …..Therefore, as a young person, YOU WILL NEVER fulfil any career that this system offers.”
There are many other quotations that could be cited from WTBS (Watchtower Tract and Bible Society) publications between 1966-75 that were raising expectations of Armaggedon very likely, but not absolutely, occurring in 1975. Even the WTBS recognised that “no one knew the day or the hour” but 1975 was targeted as a very high probability. When the expectations failed rank and file members were initially blamed for reading too much into what had been published. See WT July 15,1979, pages 440-441 paragraphs 11-17. Eventually the WTBS accepted some responsibility for the false expectations 4 years later see WT March 15, 1980 pages 17-18. This was somewhat better than after the failed prediction for Armaggedon in 1925 when no apology was forthcoming. Guess what, rank and file members then were blamed for reading too much into what had previously been published.
There is no doubt that there was presumtuousness and an unnecesarry urgency being expressed within the writings of the WT in regard to 1975. But as has been acknowledged above, there was never a certainty expressed as to whether it would be the year 1975. And as has also been expressed, the brothers responsible for that premature scenario expressed their regret for their involvement.
God’s people have often, even in Biblical times, expected and declared the right thing at the wrong time. It did not make them false prophets. It made them wrong and in need of correction.
God’s people have often, even in Biblical times, expected and declared the right thing at the wrong time.
Could you give specific examples of this?
It came right out of Franz’s own mouth:
I lived through this whole shananigans. It was drilled into us weekly, 3 times a week and before field service. Then it was suddenly our dilusion.
Compare please the 300 plus prophecies that came to be about our Savior in the Old Testimate vs. the ones made by the Watchtower’s (1873, 1874 Messiahs Presence, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1941, 1975, Generation of 1914, Overlapping Generations. …I’m sure I’m missing a couple). If a prophecy does not come true – it is false…period.
Sure. Moses went 40 years too soon to free the israelites under the expectation that God was going to deliver the Israelites by his hand at that time. he was so confident of God’s backing he was even willing to kill an Egyptian. He expected the right thing at the wrong. God did not reject Moses for his misguided zeal, but rather rewarded him by allowing him to be their savior from Egypt when time was actually right.
The inspired prophet Nathan told David that God would be with his efforts to build the temple. However, God had to correct Nathan and Nathan had to inform David that he would not build the temple. Nathan expected the right thing at the wrong time by the wrong person. He did not cease to be God’s prophet because of the error. He was corrected.
The Apostles expected the kingdom to be restored to Israel in the first century. They expected the right thing at the wrong time.
Ok so some individuals recorded in the Bible misunderstood or had premature expectations. However did any of what the prophets, the apostles or other Biblical writers wrote later have to be changed, contradicted or expectations that they recorded fail?
I’m not sure I understand your question, but as I mentioned, Nathan specifically told David that God would be with him in his efforts to build the temple. That was recorded right within the Bible. And yes, it had to be changed or corrected.
What this demonstrates is even inspired prophets like Nathan, when they were NOT speaking under inspiration, could make mistakes. Obviously, when Nathan told David that God would be with him in building the temple, that was NOT a time when he was speaking under inspiration.
The faithful slave among Jehovah’s Witnesses has never claimed inspiration and have acknowledged that they can and have made mistakes.
“The faithful slave among Jehovah’s Witnesses has never claimed inspiration and have acknowledged that they can and have made mistakes”.
Yes at times they have acknowledged mistakes, erroneous views and false predictions see Awake June 1995 pp 8-922, however you are incorrect when you state they have never claimed inspiration.
Referring to Bible educational work being done at the time the power of the holy spirit is acknowledged but then the following is stated ” It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put HIS WORDS in their mouths”.
If you read paragraphs 11-14 of the article you will clearly see they claim also to be God’s prophet to the nations. So in effect they are claiming to be speaking in God’s name. WT Jan 15, 1959 Down with the Old-Up with the New.
WT April 1, 1972 reafims this claim pp178-179 sub heading Identifying The Prophet, that prophet is claimed to be Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses.
In the book The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah page 58 ref the modern day prophet:-
So it is with the modern-day counterpart of Ezekiel: it is, not one person’s body, but a composite body, made up of many members. All these members were together to do the will of Jehovah, who is the Creator of this modern “Ezekiel.” Who, then, are the group of persons who, toward the beginning of this “time of the end,” were commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah?
and on page 61 the following:-
Whom could the real “chariot” of Jehovah’s organization roll up to and confront that He might bestow upon this qualified one the commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah? Ah, there was a group whose members had suffered religious persecution during World War I at the hands of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, and whose members had, in fact, come out from the religious organizations of Babylon the Great. In fact, they had refused to be a party with Christendom and with all the rest of Babylon the Great in actively taking part in carnal warfare during World War I. Who were they?
The susequent answer is Jehovah’s Witnesses.
As you can see the comparison is with Ezekiel who was an inspired prophet of Jehovah. The society also claims to be ‘spirit directed’ according to the second baptism question so the society wants it both ways. Sometimes not inspired other times not inspired, sometimes prophets other times not, sometimes directed by holy spirit other times clearly not.
You’ve misunderstood what was intended by the use of the word prophet. Think about it Mike, do you really think that they believe all of Jehovah’s Witnesses are inspired prophets? Reasonableness would dictate otherwise. Clearly that was not their intent.
The definition of a prophet is one who is commissioned to speak the inspired words of God. If one has been commissioned to speak God’s words IN THE BIBLE to others, he is in effect a prophet of God. But the inspiration is in the words that he speaks FROM the Bible, not in his own words.
The example of Nathan the prophet demonstrates that perfectly. When he spoke “God’s words” he was clealry inspired, when he spoke his own words, he was not and was prone to error. The only inspired words that a prophet can speak today are the inspired words of the Bible, nothing more. No WT publication, other than repeating the inspired words of God from the Bible, contains any inspiration today. That has been acknowledged numerous times.
But a prophet can only be those who have been commissioned by God to go forth with HIS WORDS from the Bible to tell others of the truth and the approaching day of judgment that is taught within.
“So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
IDENTIFYING THE “PROPHET”
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? … This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. … Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel’s work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the “prophet” commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God’s Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom.” Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’
I’ll ask you what I asked Mike, Do you really think they were trying to preach that ALL Jehovah’s Witnesses were inspired prophets? You realize that would include all of them if you interpret it the way you are interpreting it, not just the governing body.
Notice that the word prophet is often enclosed with quotation marks within this article. What’s the purpose of the quotation marks? It represents a quasi meaning for the word prophet,
So your point is that the rest of the witnesses are just as guilty as the Governing Body because they took it for truth and followed them? Yup, we were guilty for following a false prophet and subsequently spreading that garbage around. So does that lessen the point that they are false prophets? No. The real point is: If you are following a false prophet, remove yourself from that organization and repent!
They wouldn’t be considered any more a false prophet than was the prophet Nathan. See my previous responses to Miken and reread my responses to you. You’re clearly not catching the point.
I take it from the fact that you say “we” that you were once a JW. If you are disfellowshipped or disassociated, I will have to cease my comments to you. Nothing personal, it is merely a stance I believe to be scriptural.
I’m catching the point quite succinctly and in no way shape or form is the Watchtower organization comparable to any prophets of old that Jesus spoke of: It is written in the Prophets (see Isaiah 54; 13, Jeremiah 31:34, Micah 4:2): ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. — John 6:45
Also, I am afraid your “shunning” of me has no effect, I am not afraid. (Deut 18:22) The Lord is my savior and any forgiveness of my sins comes from him — not a made up organization of men who do not recognize him. I have asked for forgiveness of not coming to Him and for not accepting his Grace and for spreading false teachings.
You are in my prayers kind sir that you realize that the only “truth” is found in following him. He is the true religion.
Dear tk2012, mike and Rotherham,
Below are a bunch of points you might want to consider. I am not a JW and raised Catholic. I have been studying for about 5 years. Your questions have been the same as mine recently, and I wonder if God does have an organisation on earth he is using to do his will, or if he has none, and they are all to be destroyed (The harlot) and only those who do private worship and get to know him will be saved?
I have to conclude that God must have an organisation or else he could not fulfil the prophecy of Matthew 24:14. This place is to big for one man like Noah these days.
Also, when I look at the JW’s and all the other religions, no one is even close to what the bible really says except the JW’s. God is love. He can not allow a child to die of starvation every 6 seconds forever. His will must be done upon the earth sooner or later as promised in the bible. Revelation is symbolic. burning in fire that never goes out is symbolic for everlasting destruction that will not be reversed. A God who IS love, would not literally torment anyone for ever. Clearly there is a great crowd who survive the great tribulations. Also there is clearly 144,000 who will be resurrected first, and this is in heaven to rule as kings and priests. These bible teachings are clearly ignored by religions. They simplify the sales pitch to: we all die and go to heaven, and this world is going to be a mess for ever unless we fix it ourselves.
You can not let your light shine, and many can not come the the true knowledge in the last days, (Daniel ch 12) without God making his secrets known SOMEHOW. The Dream in Daniel ch 2 is also plain and easy to understand. I can not imagine it meaning anything else other than what the JW teach. The churches will tell you it was only relevant in Daniels day, and only he understood it. Clearly not, because it’s meaning was to be “sealed up” until the last days, and Daniel stated he did not understand. No one is even close to it, except the JW’s. Most just don’t even attempt it.
Jesus says at the end of Matthew gospel he will be with the disciples ALL the days until the end of the age or system of things. Not just for a 100 years or so and then it is every man for himself. Also, this statement clearly shows the system is ending. So who is Jesus with right up to the end? The 144,000 anointed disciples he is “taking from the earth” to be part of the first resurrection in heaven. What is their role while on earth? It is to care for God’s flock and to “feed God’s sheep” (John 20:15,16 and many more) How can this be done if the disciples are not acting as one when the kingdom news has to be declared to all the earth before the end comes? How can they feed and care for the flock if no one knows who they are? I can not imagine he is working with thousands of individuals who are not part of an organisation, because he told the disciples to make more disciples, and teach them the things he taught them. You can not do this if everyone is an individual and they never meet or talk to each other, just do their own thing.
Do not forsake gathering with the congregation says Paul. There must be one to gather with.
You will know my people by the love they have among one and other. This included not killing each other, even if they come from another country, and in war. JWs stand out here too. They do their best. They are not perfect, but they stand out from the crowd of religions without a doubt. If we are all un associated individuals with no congregation and do not know who our spiritual brothers and sisters are, then how can we have love among one and other as being a distinguishable feature as described by Jesus? tk2012 you sound like you have found shepherds, but expected perfection from those who inherited sin like all of us, so left. I know how you feel, I have had similar thoughts, but when I look at the big picture, there is no-one else who gets the truth even close, so I can only recommend returning to the congregation.
The New World Order, if you believe Lindsey Williams, is preparing for a derivative market collapse and the establishment of their New World Order of global government. They wanted to do it under Bush jr, but now have it planned for end of Obama’s term. It might happen, it might not, but they are doing a good job of creating enough US debt to make it work.
The witness’s have said they do not know how or when, but just to be ready. As the bible says. At the time, we may get life saving instruction through the spirit anointed (144,000) which may be necessary at Armageddon. We may not, it might just happen and you either live or die, but it is going to happen, there is no hiding from what is prophesised. But when it is all over, and if we survive, it would be nice to know that all the others who survived are all trained by Jehovah and “on the same page” so we can start teaching those who are to be resurrected.
I have read the Watchtower re the 1975 year. Quotes used to criticise are out of context. The magazine from my reading clearly outlines different arguments that were been “spreading” among the witnesses back in 1968 or so, and the reasonings behind them. When you take the quotes, it looks like that is what they are saying will happen. But they are detailing various theories and rumours. When you read the conclusion, which this website refers to as a conflict or confusion with the body of the magazine, it is not confused at all. In summary, it says despite these theories discussed, nobody knows the day or hour, so press on with the job and forget about dates. (the exact opposite to picking a date!) An example given to imitate was the apostle Paul who described his preaching work as urgent because he did not know the day or hour. The WT magazines tells the witnesses to adopt an attitude like Paul, and not be obsessed with picking dates, because know one knows, just press on with the job of preaching until the end comes. That is the content and message in the magazine.
Yes, Rutherford had wrong dates, but it was a quick lesson not to try and pick dates. If one examines the bible, you can see straight away Rutherford was thinking things that were not written in the bible. On the other hand, 90% of what he wrote was extremely insightful and made perfect sense with the bible.
Clear JW teaching such as the great crowd who survive the great tribulations, the 144,000 of the first resurrection, the resurrection itself, the “end” of this system, they are all simple to understand statements in the bible, and so is the being conscious of nothing at all when dead. God’s overall plan is clearly not to let this system go on forever, so people can die and go to heaven. It is going to end, and people will criticise those who preach it. 2Peter 3:3 to 10 outlines this clearly. The only organisation who is close to this is the JW’s. They can get too keen at times, but mostly they appear to be extremely scriptural compared to others.
Can a person do it on their own? I think not. See Acts 8:25 to 40. Yes it would be easy to just go it alone, a lot less effort, but that would render me fairly worthless like the parable of the talents. I would bury it and produce nothing or very little on my own. I think it makes sense that God’s spirit can asset in producing food for the flock via the WT etc, and then they can also add to it and make mistakes, as the prophets did. When you look at what they produce, it is a feast compared to the crumbs I got from a the Catholic church, and most other churches have similar teachings. They actually tell you not to bother reading Revelation, it is to hard to understand. The warning in Revelation say the opposite.
It does make sense the examples from Rotherham, that a prophet can speak a message from God, and then still sin, speak their own mind, or they might even refuse to go like Johah! But I have never read a single word that claims to be anything “new” or additional to what is already written in the bible from a JW. So they are not prophets with a new message. They simply are doing their best to interpret the scriptures and sometimes get it wrong, or see too deep into it, because they are looking so hard. More that I can say for mainstream religions. But I have to conclude that they at some times must have meanings of scriptures revealed to them by holy spirit, because they have produced so much accurate an revealing spiritual food and meaning of scriptures that have been “sealed up” for so long, that I can not imaging a few blokes doing all this in just 100 or so years, when no church has managed to do it for some 2,000 years.
Maybe we need to humble ourselves that we judged to harshly, like they have to admit they overstepped the scriptures at times with their overzealous interpretations.
I hope this helps someone.
1. Does God exist?
2. Does he expect us to do it on our own or with a congregation of spiritual brothers and sisters who work together to achieve God’s will?
If the answer to 1 is yes, and we can not find that congregation, then maybe we need to be looking for a congregation of sinful humans, and to see if they are doing God’s will, analyse their deeds against the bible, and not expect perfection…….yet. If God exists, then there must be at least one organisation who is getting it close. Yes, we will be taught by Jehovah, the revealer of secrets, through his word, but as Jesus says, who is the faithful and discreet slave?
Hope to see you all in the next system after Armageddon.
Could you please reference the WT publications you have quoted above Glen123?
There is only 1 truth. If you are in Christ, you are in it, He is the way, the truth, the life. There is salvation in no one else.
His church is a body of believers, it is not an organization, it is a living organism,
Do not put your trust in man, who cannot save…
I think the only watchtower I referenced was the issue that had a title something like “Why are we looking forward to 1975?” I got it from online once and read it in full, but I do not have access to it. I am stating from memory what it said and it’s final message. There is no point to me stating specific references from this mag, because that is what others do, and that is how it is taken out of context. I can only suggest the best thing is to search for a copy and read the article in full. You will find it does even state a year of 1975 as the end of this system of things, and the reasons behind it, BUT it also explains how these are the rumours that are going around that people come up with, among the members of the congregations. It uses some scripture to support these reasonings, but in the end states how they are not sound or conclusive reasonings, and at the end of the day no one knows the day or hours, only the father, (Although Jesus might know now, even though he didn’t while he was on earth) and to press on with the job of ensuring the message is witnessed to all the earth before the end comes s Matth 24:14 says, and to take one day at a time.
So given this, it makes it very easy for people to take a quote from the mag and say that the JW mag predicted 1975 as the end of the world and it didn’t come.
So my reference is the whole magazine. If I put something in inverted commas, I am quoting from memory what the bible says, not a magazine. If there is a specific thing you think I have quoted that does not reflect what the bible says, please let me know and I will find the reference.
Thank you for your concern, and I can assure you I certainly don’t put my faith or trust in man. The bible says we can not guide our own steps, and the heart is “treacherous”, so don’t just follow your heart like many people say, or I heard Hillsong preach on TV lately. Place your trust in Jehovah, and throw your burdens upon him.
Having agreed with this, I must also say that without Jehovah’s Witnesses, I would not have gained any sort of real understanding of the scriptures. They have given me understanding of it, even if some things are still open to debate, much of what they teach is totally consistent with the bible.
Many scriptures which can be interpreted more than one way if you take them in isolation, can have their meaning clarified by other scriptures.
Is debating over such things like: did the time of the Gentiles end in 1914 according to the Witnesses or 1994 according to some scholars, so important? I don’t think it matters. Some things God wants to reveal and other things he obviously feels we don’t need to know in full and exact detail. But the important thing is I now understand what the big picture is, God’s will for the earth and mankind, how it all fits together, and what God’s plan is for everlasting life for those who want to get to know him and do his will. I now know what God’s Kingdom is and that the world now is consistent with what the bible prophecies is “the last days” and that the end will come, despite in the last days people ridiculing and saying. “where is this promised presence of his.” (2Peter 3:4).
Whether the “new heavens” which started with the eviction of Satan and his demons from heaven and their being bound to the earth during the last days happened right on 1914 or 20 years before does not matter. The evidence of Satan’s final anger, however, becomes very evident in 1914. If you watch the documentary on SBS one, or go to SBS catch up website to watch it, you will see even non religious historians say there was a change in the world they can not explain. (to paraphrase) (Episode 1 was called Doomsday, Episode 2 called Purgatory, and tonight at 8.30 or 9.30pm or so is the third and final episode. So whether Satan plotted and planned and manoeuvred things with his demons for 20 years or less before launching into action or whether he got going straight away is not critical. Maybe 1994 is the correct year and Jesus did other things at the beginning of his rule and 2, 5, 10 or whatever years later he then fought with the Dragon, Satan and his demons and evicted him then. There is no real detail on that. It simply says what happened. But the general knowledge and understand sure helps. (Rev 12:7 and 21:1) It was an clearly a cleansing of the heavens, or the “new heavens” like there is going to be a cleansing of the earth to make a “new earth”.
Now in heaven Jesus can look to where Satan was, but he is there no more. Likewise as Psalms say, you will turn to where the wicked man once stood, and he will be there no more.
Sorry I can’t make it short for you, but you will have to read the whole article to get the real message from it, not just short references.
As for God not having an organisation, I don’t think that is consistent with the scriptures. If he didn’t then a lot of scripture would be pointless. For example:
1. Letter to TImothy says that all scripture is inspired of God, and good for teaching, reproving and setting things straight. How can we do all this, if we all just go it all alone.
2. God included in the bible the example in Acts 8:25 as mentioned where the person reading the bible could not understand unless it was explained to him. Going it alone was not possible.
3. Also, why then would Paul write, do not forsake gathering with the congregation as some have the custom. And told us to be uplifting and encourage one and other when we meet.
4. God has always used people do deliver his message. Moses did not save the Jews, God did. But he still used Moses. Yes we can be taught or saved by Jehovah, but we need the support of the congregation.
Can you imagine after Armageddon not knowing who your “brothers and sisters” are when you are the only ones left standing. We won’t all be strangers, this is evident because:
5. In Matthew chapter 24 after Jesus explains the sheep will go to his right after the great tribulations and inherit the kingdom prepared for us from the beginning, and the goats will go off to his left, into everlasting destruction, he explains just one of many reasons behind his judgement. He simply put it that when the very least of our spiritual brothers needed us, we were not there to help him. That means the bloke that keeps on making mistakes, who gets on our nerves for certain things, but is trying to love and serve Jehovah and his brothers and sisters, still needs our support, love, and help. How can we if we just go it on our own. To be there to help our brothers we must know who they are and associate with them.
6. Then keep reading Matthew and Jesus ask, who then is the faithful and discreet slave giving the proper food at the proper time. Do the JW give wrong food at times? Yes, indeed they have, but they are people whom God has not removed the inherited sin and imperfection from. God does not totally control them. Do the JW give food which is bountiful, and full of insight which provides both a broad and deep understanding of the scriptures? Yes. And although things are overzealously spoken and wrong dates given, generally speaking when you look at the time line of 2000 years since Christ, I think they are giving the right food at the right time. Not at the right day, hour or year, but at the right time meaning this generation is the one who needs this understanding. Just like in Noah’s day, they would have laughed louder and louder as the years went by, but the rain came. Noah did not preach for 120 and then the flood came 300 years after that. The current preaching work is timely. The global government is not far off. You tube New World Order Defined, and watch the documentary, and see the hold Satan has on this system and what is planned by the blinded puppets of Satan. The end will come as foretold. Writing people off for being TOO keen could be a mistake.
Who knows, maybe Satan is the one who plants these dates and some ideas in the head, like he did with Judas? Anything is possible. Loyal people can honestly get things wrong. But some facts are clear. The end will come.
Are JWs false prophets. I am taught they are not a prophet at all, as they do not write anything from God, or bring any messages from God like a prophet does, they are simply loyal servants of God doing their best to interpret the scriptures, and when Jehovah is ready he will reveal what he wants to, when he thinks it is time. The rest of the time these men are working it out as best they can and make mistakes.
You must admit they made massive gains on the truth of the bibles message compared to the fairly stagnant teachings of the churches from 300 to 1870 or so when they started closely examining the bible and the church teachings.
7. Jesus says you will know my people by the love they have among one and other. How can you do this if you are a lone Christian in a world of ungodly people, where your only spiritual channel is from you to God and back. You need to channel your Godly devotion to others in the congregation to uplift and encourage them and they an reciprocate. You then need to channel this into doing God’s will as Math 24: and point 11 brings out below.
8. Matth 24:14 as I said before can not be achieved by one man like Noah. It needs an organised organisation to achieve this. Jehovah is a God of order. Can you imagine doing this on your own, or a group of people doing this on their own and not communication with each other? There are now over 7 billion people in the world to preach to.
9. Jesus, at the end of John, asks Peter 3 times if he loves him. Upon saying yes, he is then told to feed his sheep. Jesus, the head of the congregation, clearly wants his disciples to feed his sheep. It is to be done using Gods word to teach, reprove and set things straight. It is not just a matter of a bunch of bibles being printed and that is the end of it. People, and other disciples of Christ, must do the job Peter and original 12 disciples were commissioned to do. Jesus was practically saying to Peter, if you do not feed my sheep, then you do not love me.
10 God says if you have anything against your brother, leave your gift at the alter and make up with him, otherwise your gift is worthless. This would have no meaning if there was not an organisation of God’s people, where we are all brothers and sisters, from all the nations, all worshiping the one true God, and “seeking his kingdom first” in our lives. If you insist on going it on your own, then you have something against all of your brothers and sisters.
11. Quite significantly, Paul writes (I better quote this one, or I might stuff it up) at 1 Corinthians 3:5, “What then is Apollos? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, even as the Lord granted each one. I planted, Apollos watered, but God kept making it grow; so that neither is he that plants, or he that waters, but God who makes it grow. Now he that plants and he that waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are God’s fellow workers. You people are God’s field under cultivation. God’s building.”
So from this you can see that at a singular level, you are right. It is God who makes it grow. It is God who will teach us. But god does it through his loyal workers. One plants a seed of information, another waters it with clarification once the person has thought about it, and builds the knowledge, but it is God who makes it grow. And the workers who spread God’s word – did you notice what he says about them? Firstly, “he that plants and he that waters are ONE” They must be working together to be working as one. God is using people to do his preaching work. Secondly, Yet although they work as one, they are rewarded separately according to their efforts. That is where the individual component comes into it. Jesus gave specific instruction on how to preach, and told his disciples to make more disciples, because they are the channel for the message of the Kingdom that Jesus came to preach about. He added for them to pray to the master of the harvest for more workers because the harvest is great, but the workers are few.
I suspect you know all the bible material I am referring to in the 11 points. Do you really need to belong to God’s organisation to be saved? I do not have the answer, but I am fairly certain there will be many saved who are not, some who are JW who won’t.
Having said that, I think most JW’s will be save because they receive the right training to prepare them for God’s Kingdom, and the food they receive allows them to get to know and trust in God, and it gives them the encouragement and support they need to become workers in God’s field under cultivation so that they may receive a reward according to their deeds. Belonging to this organisation I think certainly improves your chances of being save and helps keep you on track.
If you know of an organisation who has a congregation of people who you think comply with the bible more accurately than the JW and are also doing God’s work preaching the news of the Kingdom. (That is the real Kingdom which Christ will rule as king, and God is going to set up in accordance with Daniel 2:44) and not just preach the “good news of God” which does not contain any message or knowledge of what God’s Kingdom is.) then please let me know I would be interested to look them up and find out about them. The only people I see doing this work is the JW. If there was another organisation similar, then it would need looking into so that I can truly find God’s organisation. But at the moment, I do not know of anyone besides JWs who do a better job at doing God’s will, even taking into account their errors, as I would take into account the errors of any religious organisation.
The bible also says that if you learn the truth and to turn away, this makes your condition worse than before. Please go over the 11 examples above, there are likely many more that do not spring to mind. Please forgive your brothers and sisters errors, they have your interests at heart and are just very keen to know what the scriptures mean and get to the next system. This keenness obviously facilitates them overstepping or reading to much into the scriptures. Be thankful for the truths you have learned, and forgive their errors. If you as an individual have the insight to know what are the truths and errors, then you can join the congregation and work with others using the scriptures to set things straight. You can produce fine fruit if you invest your talents wisely.
You won’t be on your own in the next system, don’t try and go it alone now. If the church is one body of Christians, then they must know each other and work together, or they are not a body. They are not a church. They are simply individuals living in this world under Satan, the “god of this system of things” and burying the “talents” God gave them, and then when they dig them up again, Jesus may say to them, go away you useless slave, as he did in this parable. God’s people are evident by the fruit they produce. Sure the man in the parable is hoping in God and trusting in him, and hiding their light, waiting to pull it out when Christ’s presence is made manifest to the world, but they invested nothing in the coming of the Kingdom while they had the chance. As an organisation, the investment in the kingdom preaching work bears much more fruit than trying to do it an an individual. The organisation won’t save you, God will – you are right. But God will find more favour upon you if you can bear more fruit, and show love among your brothers and sisters, and forgive them freely, and gather together with them, and feed them if they are without food, and take your gift to God’s alter in the same spirit that you give your gifts of knowledge and encouragement to your brothers and sisters in the congregation, and your gifts of bringing the good news to those who are not aware of it.
If you can’t find the watchtower issue in question on line, let me know, and I will have a look also and pass on any links.
An nice elderly JW came to my door a month or two back. I told her how my severely handicapped sister was paraded on stage by brothers proclaiming that “in a just a few short months she would be leaping like a dear.” She looked at me sadly and said “We never should have set dates.”
Yes, I was there. Yes, they did in no uncertain terms set dates. I was at numerous talks, came out of Franz’s own mouth, I read the publications.
I pray that you, if you desire truth, will research for yourself. I pray that you will come to know that the Scriptures are the only way through which God reveals Himself to us.
Below is a link to the various quotes regarding 1975 from the societies publications:
thanks, I read the link, and there were certainly high hopes placed on time periods or years, which were nominated by JW. Never any actual dates, as to attempt that would certainly go against the scriptures which say no one knows the day or hour, but certainly years and it is always “soon”.
Our human concepts of time, are vastly different to God’s. Jesus said to go preaching that the kingdom of the heavens has “drawn near”. Even then, the apostles were keen to know when, perhaps thinking it would come in their lifetime. But Jesus definition of near would be different to ours. But the disciples never saw the fulfilment of the scriptures that we are seeing now, and the prophesied end of the gentile times certainly is our time, the exact year is, although agreed around 1900, give or take a bit, it is still debatable. Would you agree with that?
Can I ask you what is the truth? Forget the organisation issue, just what is the real message of the bible in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens that Jesus came to earth to preach about. Do you still agree that one day in the future the bibles promises of a new heavens and new earth will happen, that the destruction of “ungodly men” will happen as 2 Peter ch 3 describes, and that as Revelation states 144,000 people will be taken from the earth and be part of the first resurrection and rule as kings and priests with Christ for 1000 years before the Kingdom is handed back to his father, and that a “great crowd” on which no number is places will come out of the great tribulations as described in Revelation and Matthew Ch 24?
And after this the dead, who are conscious of nothing at all at the moment, (Eccl 9:5 as you would know) will be resurrected back to life on earth, and some to everlasting life and some to everlasting cutting off from which there will be no further resurrection? And when this happens we will turn around to where the wicked one once was but he will not be there anymore?
Or do you now revert to the mainstream religious teaching of the immortal soul and the end of this system on earth where Satan has a big influence, will not actually happen, and there will not be a resurrection of people back to earth?
All Scripture is inspired by God. Scripture speaks with the authority of God Himself. It is certain; it is reliable; it is true. Jesus Himself prayed in John 17:17: “Your word is truth.” Psalm 119:160 says, “The entirety of Your word is truth.”
Those statements all set Scripture above every human opinion, every speculation, and every emotional sensation. Scripture alone stands as definitive truth. It speaks with an authority that transcends every other voice.
Pilate asked the same question you asked:
John 18:28 Then they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the Roman governor’s residence. (Now it was very early morning.) They did not go into the governor’s residence so they would not be ceremonially defiled, but could eat the Passover meal. 29 So Pilate came outside to them and said, “What accusation do you bring against this man?” 30 They replied, “If this man were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you.” 31 Pilate told them, “Take him yourselves and pass judgment on him according to your own law!” The Jewish religious leaders replied, “We cannot legally put anyone to death.” 32 This happened to fulfill the word Jesus spoke indicating what kind of death he was going to die. 33 So Pilate went back into the governor’s residence, summoned Jesus, and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” 34 Jesus replied, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or have others said it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own people and your chief priests handed you over to me. What have you done?” 36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would fight to prevent me being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But now my kingdom is not from here.” 37 Then Pilate said, “So you are a king!” Jesus replied, “You say that I am a king. I have been born and have come into the world for this reason—to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate asked, “What is truth?”
The scriptures answer:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I know you don’t want to believe dates were set. All I can do is give you my own testimony and provide you with links of the WTBTS literature (of which you can no longer find on their website for good reason). Take time to listen to Franz’s speech which is linked in the comments above these. 1975 was not the only date they set 1914, 1924, 1925 and so on. I harbor no ill will towards the JWs. Many are people seeking after God, I believe unfortunately they are being mislead.
God’s word has given us warning about listening to those who prophecies do not come true:
Deut 18:21 “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ 22 If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.
Eph 4:14-15 Then we shall not be children any longer, or tossed one way and another and carried along by every wind of doctrine, at the mercy of all the tricks men play and their cleverness in practicing deceit. If we live by the truth and in love, we shall grow in all ways into Christ, who is the head.
1 Jn 2:20-26 God has given you all a certain amount of spiritual insight, and indeed I have not written this warning as if I were writing to men who don’t know what error is. I write because your eyes are clear enough to discern a lie when you come across it… For yourselves keep faithful to what you heard at the beginning. I had to write to you about these men who try to lead you astray.
Acts 20: 29-31 “I know quite well that when I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks their will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them. So be on your guard…”
Mat 10:16-17 “Here am I sending you out like sheep with wolves all round you; so be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But be on your guard against men…”
Luke 10:3 “Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.”
Mat 24:25 “False christs and false prophets are going to appear and produce great signs and wonders to mislead, if it were possible, even God’s own people. Listen, I am warning you.”
Truth: God, God’s Son, God’s Spirit, God’s Word.
There are no hidden messages in Jesus parables about an organization that will lead us.
The gospel message is for all believers.
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; -John 10:26
Truth is not religion, it is not an organization.
I pray that God blesses you and reveals this to you.
thanks for you reply. I understand God’s word is the truth, but one scripture can be quoted, and two people will say it means two different things. What do you say is the truthful message, in layman’s terms from the bible as per my last posting in relation to the promise of everlasting life, either here on earth via the resurrection, after this system ends, or is the soul immortal and our only hope of everlasting life is in heaven. (my question is better explained last post)
“And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day”….Genesis 3:8
I think it would be odd for God to first come walking in the garden with Adam and Eve only after they had sinned. God walking with people normally suggests closeness and intimacy and fellowship. The natural connotation, to me, is that God often did this, perhaps daily “in the cool of the day,” but what was remarkable this time was that man was afraid, because he had sinned.
My beliefs based on my own study of the Word:
1) God created us to be with Him.
2) Our sin separates us from God. -Genesis 3
3) Sins cannot be removed by good deeds. – Genesis 4-Malachi
3) Paying the price for our sin, Jesus died and rose again. (The Gospels)
4) Everyone who trusts in Him (His righteousness) alone has eternal life. (The Gospels)
5) Life with Jesus starts now and lasts forever. (Acts – Revelation)
6) One day there will be a New Heaven and a new earth – God’s eternal new kingdom will be more glorious than we can imagine:
All believers will dwell with Him:
Rev 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
Christ offers His salvation as a free gift (Romans 5:15; 6:23), that can only be received by faith, apart from any works or merit on our part (Ephesians 2:8-9). As the Apostle Paul tells us, the gospel is “…the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile” (Romans 1:16). The same inspired author tells us, “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9).
No I do not believe in soul sleep, neither did the Jews in the Old Testament (or still today).
In 2nd Kings 2:11 we read, “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” Elijah was taken up into Heaven the Bible says. Elijah did not cease to be conscious.
PS you said that the Bible verses can be interpreted differently by different people.
True, there are more difficult passages.
True, people can take scriptures out context to make it say what they want. True people have even changed the words in some versions to make it square with their theology.
Scripture must be used to interpret scripture. The Bible is a whole book.
The main things are the plain things.
We are sinners, we need a savior. God has given us a means of reconciliation. It is a free gift for our taking.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.