Sorry, no JW Review Podcast this week as I was traveling and had no time to prepare. So in it’s place, here’s an interesting conversation I had with a JW online. It began with this JW commenting on my video, “An Interesting Visit to the Kingdom Hall.” While I don’t think this JW is representative of the JW apologists you’ll find online, I think he is fairly representative of your standard JW you might meet at the kingdom hall with the exception that most JW’s wouldn’t be online commenting in the first place. At some points, I saw the conversation ending, but it kept going. I even got him to discuss 1919 a little bit. Hopefully this conversation will be of use to some.
Obviuosly hasn’t spoken to the right JW’s or he is being a little intimidating and putting these kind and gentle people on the spot so they get a bit tongue tied?? All he needs to do is go to the Bible teach book found at JW.org and he could’ve found all these answers instead of trying to be confrontational and getting You tube notoriety! What a waste of my time watching this rubbish!! YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THIS!!!
Can you show me where in the Bible Teach book 1919 is proven from the Bible?
michaeljfelker again, all the answers can be found at JW.org. Go visit and then down the bottom you will find JW.library, open it up and then in the media section look in the our meetings and ministry section and watch the video clip: ‘Do what Jesus did-teach’. And, also, if you want more info then use the ‘Watchtower online app’ found there as well. We NEVER guess as Jehovah’s Holy Spirit makes everything understandable when Jehovah wants these matters revealed through Jesus and his faithful slave… I hope this has helped you and will help you in future before posting false statements about us!! Research, research, RESEARCH! You can guarantee we did!! Proverbs 18:13, 13 When anyone replies to a matter before he hears the facts,It is foolish and humiliating… Furthermore, just because a few JW’s did not know how to answer you does NOT mean that you are right! It may be that they could sense that you were trying to find faults or create disunity within their beloved Congregation? You must understand that the love they have for one another is Christlike and they try to safeguard it at ALL times from the potential apostates of this wicked World!! 😀
What if the answers at JW.org don’t actually prove 1919 from the Bible? I’ve done quite a bit of research on this subject and i’ve found that there is no biblical basis for the idea that Jesus chose the Governing Body as the faithful slave in 1919. Also, you said that I made “false statements” about JW’s. What did I say that was false?
michaeljfelker just watch the video and if that’s not clear enough for you then head to the watchtower online ok buddy? I’m not interested in an argument here. What I mean is that anything that I could tell you is much better explained using these great study tools! 😀📖💽🎥
So you’re going to publicly tell me that i’m making false statements but not tell me specifically what was false? It’s really unfortunate too that JW’s hold to this 1919 doctrine without any biblical basis. You can tell me to go to JW.org all you want to find answers, but I can assure you that the answers there are extremely weak and unbiblical concerning this doctrine.
michaeljfelker your false statements were that we do not know what we are doing!! You make it sound like NONE of us know ANYTHING about our worship!! If you are ‘honestly’ seeking answers to get to know our God Jehovah better then he will let you! BUT, if you are just trying to discredit HIS people I say “CAREFUL BIG FELLA!!” HE DID NOT WAIT ALL THIS TIME TO SET UP ‘HIS’ PURE WORSHIP TO HAVE IT MOCKED BY ANYONE!!! 😲😲😲
Where did I say that you did not know what you were doing? What I expressly stated is that no one could explain 1919 to me. And then they acted extremely immaturely and basically began to shun me and my friend, even though we were being as friendly as possible with everyone. And yes, I will discredit any religious group who teaches unbiblical doctrines such as 1919. And it’s pretty sad that you see my disagreements as mocking. I love the JW’s and want them to come to know the truth.
So, obviously, you didn’t follow my advice?? We are done here as clearly you aren’t being honest and I’m starting to get the impression that John 6:44 is not in play here but who knows, with a lot of ernest prayer you may get the invite? I will pray for you…AGAIN!! See ya…😁
So you come on my page and publicly tell me i’m making false statements, refuse to explain what false statements I made, refuse to have an intelligent dialogue, and then leave. I guess that’s the JW way? I wish you all the best and pray you come to find a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:3).
michaeljfelker Are you serious?? You’re not on drugs are you?? I LITERALLY , PUBLICLY stated quite CLEARLY how you were trying to insinuate that the JW’s you spoke with did not know what is involved in some of their own Bible based teachings!! It is no surprise to me that you were shunned either, as I have CLEARLY proven how you do not even listen when given the correct answer!! BTW, I KNOW OUR LORD AND KING JESUS JUST FINE BUT THANKYOU! 😃😄
Wow, you don’t sound very “humble and meek?” (e.g. writing in all caps, exclamation marks, personal insults, etc.) It’s not a false statement to say that the JW’s I spoke with could not explain their 1919 teaching. That is the truth. And so far, you’re not able to explain that to me either. And it’s sad that you have to accuse people who disagree with you of drug use. Is that how the Watchtower teaches you to behave? And do you really know Jesus Christ? If so, when was the last time you prayed to him?
michaeljfelker what is sad is that you are clearly out of your depth and will NEVER understand ANY of this if you think that Jesus is God!! You are right though, even though it is not a sin to get annoyed, I probably could have been more polite? My apologies as it was very late at night here… Also, I’ve given you the way to find the answers. This is called teaching yes? You give the person the tools they need and then allow them to discover the truth themselves. I’ll leave it there for now because I have many other sincere people that I must go and revisit today who want to know more about the one and only true Almighty God Jehovah! Isaiah 45:18, 18 For this is what Jehovah says,The Creator of the heavens, the true God,The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. John 14:28, 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am. Have fun researching…😁
Thanks for your apology. Pointing me to a website rather than actually showing me the truth and correcting any of my errors is not teaching. It’s fine to refer to a website for additional interest on something, but you haven’t even began to try to teach me anything. For example, did you even attempt to prove 1919 from the Bible to me? When you knock on doors, do you just tell people to go to JW.org, or do you attempt to answer their questions and try to correct their errors? But i’ll have you know that I do go to JW.org quite a bit. In fact, I do a video review every single week of the WT study article. And every single week, I show where the Watchtower is wrong in teaching unbiblical ideas. But since you don’t care about having a respectful interaction with me, i’m probably just wasting my time in writing this. However, anytime you want to come back to discuss your Watchtower doctrines (1914,1919, the other sheep, etc.), i’m more than willing to listen to you and interact.
michaeljfelker when we go door to door we are looking for sheep like ones who are interested in studying the Bible and who show a humble and meek attitude. We normally find that the ones who are aggressive in their questioning, for lack of a better word, are usually NOT really interested in the truth but only in satisfying their own egos. The answer to your question is quite complicated and should be handled by an experienced Brother whilst conducting a Bible study with you. If you are ‘SERIOUSLY’ seeking the truth then put your money where your mouth is and request a free Bible study yes? That’s my best suggestion at this stage for you apart from what I have already suggested(which was a perfectly legitimate suggestion btw and your reasoning is quite obtuse and lacks wisdom my friend!) Furthermore, if you persist in attempting to focus on creating an argument with me this will only prove that you are NOT for real about finding God and only have a self-serving and haughty attitude! Life isn’t all about ‘likes’ and ‘subscriptions’, it’s all about the sanctification of Jehovah’s name and that’s all that I’m interested in trying to achieve with help from his Holy Spirit! We are dust!! I will NOT waste any more of my time trying to convince you that the FDS is THE ONE TRUE CHANNEL FOR TRUE CHRISTIANS TO THE ALMIGHTY GOD! Take care and I hope that you take my advice THIS time?? Proverbs 16:12, 2 All of a man’s ways seem right to him,But Jehovah examines the motives… Proverbs 21:30, 30 There is no wisdom, nor discernment, nor counsel in opposition to Jehovah…
Where does the Bible say that Christians should only look for “sheep like ones” when we are sharing the gospel? I recall the 1st century Christians dialoging with opposers all the time. As long as someone is willing to have a respectful dialogue with me, I do my best to share the truth with them and allow the Holy Spirit to change their hearts. It’s interesting you see such a key doctrine like 1919 as “complicated” and requires an “experienced brother.” That’s code for “we really can’t explain this doctrine.” And believe me, i’ve had many a “free home bible studies” and interactions at Kingdom Halls to get someone to prove this doctrine from the Bible. Apparently, you’ve never studied 1919. Am I wrong? I’d challenge you to look into 1919 and ask yourself: “is this really a doctrine that can be proven from the Bible?” I’m not simply trying to create an argument with you. I’m trying to show you that the Governing Body is not the one true channel. They are fallible, error prone men who teach unbiblical ideas. And it’s my duty as a follower of Christ to tell you the truth. And if i’m wrong and 1919 turns out to be based on solid biblical reasoning, then i’ll drop everything and join your religion. But i’ve done quite a bit of research on your religion, both on my own and with JW’s themselves, but I remain unconvinced of your doctrines and desire to show JW’s what the truth is. You clearly have no interest in dialogue with people like me. So you can either continue to speak to me, or not. Either way, it’s fine. But i’ll be able to lay my head on my pillow tonight knowing that I tried to be as open as possible in dialoging with you. Since you refuse, it’s in God’s hands what happens from here.
Isaiah 61:1 is a perfect example of Jehovah’s direction to find ‘sheep-like’ ones, and there are MANY other scriptures to support this!! Anyone who is well versed in Jehovah God’s word would know this! Isaiah 61:1, 61 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me,Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,To proclaim liberty to the captivesAnd the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners. There are another couple of interesting points in this passage also: 1. Jesus is CLEARLY saying that Jehovah is the Sovereign Lord and NOT himself! And, 2. He is saying how he will be setting free all those from the false doctrines of other religions!(Babylon) Furthermore, Jesus only spoke with the Scribes and the Pharisees when he had to! There are times when he just ignored them completely!! He was only EVER interested in finding the humble & meek ones who were teachable and willing to give up the old ways. Anyone who wants to be close to him, even now, must do this! Zephaiah 2:3, 3 Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth,Who observe his righteous decrees. Seek righteousness, seek meekness.Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger. Also, for the last time, please do the research that I suggested as it is abundantly clear that you have NEVER done a study with one of Jesus subjects!! Otherwise you would already know how the books of Daniel, Luke, numbers and Revelations explain very well how the year of Jesus rulership began! I am not a perfect man by any means but I have diligently studied the Holy Scriptures for years my friend so I would probably advise just sticking to the Bible and NOT just your own opinions or understandings ok? 2 Timothy 3:16… It is pretty obvious that you will not take on my help so unfortunately I will have to kindly leave it there, please don’t try to defame our God’s organization anymore as this would be very unwise for your future, just like the Pharisees did! Acts 5:38,39, 38 So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself. WE ARE THE ONLY RELIGIOUS GROUP WHO HAS NEVER BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY TYPE OF CONFLICT OR WAR AND NEVER WILL! John 13:35. THERE IS NO OTHER ORGANIZATION ON EARTH THAT IS RUN WITH SUCH EFFICIENCY AND PASSION! Isaiah 5:19 & 60:22. NO OTHER RELIGIOUS GROUPS ARE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN ANY TYPE OF PROPHECIES(IN A POSITIVE WAY)BESIDES OURS! Matthew 24:14. Isaiah 43:10. WE ARE THE ONLY CHRISTIANS WHO ACTIVELY LIVE OUT OUR LIVES ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, EXACTLY!! These facts alone should be enough for any person interested in finding the truth! But, sadly, most of tge World will not hear us!!! Isaiah 5:20, 20 Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. 2 Timothy 4:3, 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. Deuteronomy 29:4, 4 But Jehovah has not given you a heart to understand and eyes to see and ears to hear, down to this day. Ezekiel 12:2, Son of man, you are living in a rebellious house. They have eyes to see, but they do not see, and ears to hear, but they do not hear, for they are a rebellious house. I might just add too that I am speaking from a GREAT DEAL of life experience here in regards to false worship! I was born Catholic and when I was a young man I joined the Uniting church for 27 years!! I have been fighting ever since to try and accomplish righteousness in Jehovah’s eyes to the best of my imperfect ability! So please take note of this and use it to guide you to humble your heart and show discernment… Proverbs 24: 14,15, 14 Likewise, know that wisdom is good for you.If you find it, you will have a future And your hope will not be cut off. 15 Do not wickedly lie in ambush near the home of the righteous one; Do not destroy his place of rest. 27:11…
When considering who Christians should preach the gospel to, it’s important to consider all of Scripture, not just sections of it. Yes, Jesus came for the oppressed and brought hope to them. But that’s not all He or His early followers preached to. As mentioned, he did spend plenty of time dealing with the religious teachers and others. But where does the Bible say he only did this “when he had to?” And what about the apostles in the book of Acts? What about Paul on Mars Hill preaching to the Greek philosophers? And what about 2 Timothy 2:25 where Christians are to “gently correct those who are in opposition?” The gospel is for all people, even the difficult ones. Again, as long as someone is willing to have a respectful dialogue with me, i’ll give them my time and attention. Apparently, you only care about the low hanging fruit. Personally, I find that attitude to be selfish. Apparently, you’re calling me a liar when you say that i’ve never done a study with JW’s. I’ve done numerous studies. In fact, I spent years in personally studies with JW’s so that I could better understand what they believe. I have stacks and stacks of Watchtower publications and done a lot of JW.org research. And i’ve not been talking about 1914 here. 1919 is what I was primarily concerned with (not that 1914 is any more biblical. It’s not.), which is not based in the scriptures. I’m confused as to why you’d bring up the beginning of Christ’s rulership when i’ve been pressing for answers on 1919. Even if Christ’s rulership began in 1914, it would prove nothing about 1919. But since you bring up 1914 too, it’s an incredibly speculative doctrine and you’ve likely never considered the arguments against it. Just to give you one example: 1 Timothy 6:15 says in the present tense that Jesus is “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.” How could Paul have stated this in the present tense when that reality wouldn’t happen for another 2,000 years? Anyway, I might be wasting my time here as you seem to be closing the door for any additional dialogue and probably not showing me the respect of considering what I have to say anyway.
michaeljfelker if you have completed ‘several’ studies with the Witnesses then it should be all very VERY clear to you now! The fact that it is not can only mean one thing…and I don’t have the heart to say it…😔…but sorry…prayer is the only thing that may help here but if you are in opposition to Jehovah’s organization then you are really going to struggle!! Just because you mis-quote scriptures doesn’t mean that you are right btw!! I am done now though, good bye…
It should be very clear to me? But what if these JW’s wouldn’t TOUCH 1919? In all of my personal in-person interactions, not a single JW tried to deal with it. The topic was avoided and wouldn’t be discussed. How is that clear? And where did I mis-quote scripture? If i’m wrong, please show me and i’ll gladly admit i’m in error and change my perspective. On a personal note, i’d highly recommend changing your name from “Humble & Meek” because you have acted quite the opposite in this interaction. You keep saying “good bye” but i’ll be here anytime you want to have a respectful dialogue and explain why you hold to unbiblical doctrines like 1919.
Now please move on after this and be enlightened ok friend? When were God’s people captives, or prisoners, of Babylon the Great? This started sometime after the year 100 and ended in 1919. Why is this adjustment to our understanding necessary? All the evidence shows that in 1919, anointed Christians were freed from Babylon the Great and were gathered into a cleansed congregation. Think about this: Immediately after God’s Kingdom began ruling in the heavens in 1914, God’s people were tested and gradually cleansed of false worship. (Malachi 3:1-4) Then in 1919, Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave” to give “food at the proper time” to God’s cleansed people. (Matthew 24:45-47) In that same year, God’s people were released from symbolic captivity to Babylon the Great. (Revelation 18:4) But when did God’s people become captives? In the past, we explained that God’s people became captives of Babylon the Great for a short time beginning in 1918. The Watchtower of March 15, 1992, said that just as the Israelites were taken captive to Babylon, in 1918 Jehovah’s servants became captives of Babylon the Great. But more research shows that God’s people became captives many years before 1918. The prophecy at Ezekiel 37:1-14 foretold that God’s people would become captives and would later be released. Ezekiel had a vision of a valley filled with bones. Jehovah said: “These bones are the whole house of Israel.” (Verse 11) This applied to the nation of Israel and would later apply to “the Israel of God,” who are the anointed. (Galatians 6:16;Acts 3:21) In the vision, the bones came to life and became a large army. This described the way that God’s people were released from Babylon the Great in 1919. But how does this prophecy show that they were captives for a long time? First, Ezekiel noticed that the bones of the dead people were “very dry.” (Ezekiel 37:2, 11) This means that the people had been dead for a very long time. Second, Ezekiel saw that the dead came back to life gradually, not suddenly. He heard “a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones began to come together, bone to bone.” Then, he saw “sinews and flesh come on them.” Next, skin covered the flesh. Later, “breath came into them, and they began to live.” Finally, after the people came back to life, Jehovah gave them their land to live on. All of this would take time.—Ezekiel 37:7-10, 14. Just as this prophecy foretold, the Israelites were captives for a long time. Their captivity began in the year 740 before Christ when the ten tribes of Israel, the northern kingdom, were forced to leave their land. Later, in the year 607 before Christ, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians, and the other two tribes, the southern kingdom of Judah, were also forced to leave their land. Then, in the year 537 before Christ, the captivity ended when a small number of Jews returned to rebuild the temple and to worship Jehovah again in Jerusalem. So all these details show that anointed Christians must have been captives of Babylon the Great for a long time, not just from 1918 to 1919. Jesus also referred to this long period of time when he said that false Christians, the weeds, would grow together with “the sons of the Kingdom,” the wheat. (Matthew 13:36-43) During that time period, there were only a few true Christians. Most of those who said that they were Christians accepted false teachings and became apostates. That is why we can say that the Christian congregation was held captive by Babylon the Great. This captivity began sometime after the year 100 and continued until God’s spiritual temple was cleansed in the time of the end.—Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 6; 1 John 2:18, 19. During those hundreds of years, church leaders and political leaders wanted to keep people under their control. For example, people were not allowed to have a Bible or to read the Bible in a language they could understand. Some who read the Bible were even burned at the stake. And those who spoke against what church leaders taught were severely punished. It was almost impossible for anyone to learn the truth or teach it to others. We also learn from Ezekiel’s vision that God’s people came back to life and were released from false religion gradually. So when did this start to happen, and how? The vision mentions “a rattling sound.” This started to happen in the last few hundred years before the time of the end. During those years, there were some faithful individuals who wanted to find the truth and serve God even though they were surrounded by false teachings. They studied the Bible and did all they could to tell people what they were learning. Others worked hard to translate the Bible into languages that people understood. Then, near the end of the 1800’s, it was as if flesh and skin were coming on the bones. Charles Taze Russell and his friends worked hard to find Bible truth and serve Jehovah. They also helped others to understand the truth by using Zion’s Watch Tower and other publications. Later, the “Photo-Drama of Creation” in 1914 and the book The Finished Mystery in 1917 helped Jehovah’s people to strengthen their faith. Finally, in 1919, it was as if his people were given life and a new land. Since then, those who have the hope of living forever on earth have joined the anointed. They all worship Jehovah, and together they have become “an extremely large army.”—Ezekiel 37:10; Zechariah 8:20-23.*—See footnote. So it is clear that God’s people became captives of Babylon the Great after the year 100. This is the time period when many people became apostate by accepting false religious teachings and rejecting the truth. For many years, it was very difficult to serve Jehovah, just as it was for the Israelites when they were prisoners. But today the truth is being preached to everyone. How happy we are that we are living in the time when “those having insight will shine . . . brightly”! Many can now “cleanse themselves,” “be refined,” and accept true worship!—Daniel 12:3, 10.
You are right about the scriptures you mentioned being about John the baptizer, but, here it is referring to Jehovah’s people serving as a warning to the worlds populations as to his great day coming and it also speaks of how we are being refined by Jehovah in the name of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice right up until the end. 1 Peter 5:10, 10 But after you have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called you to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish your training. He will make you firm, he will make you strong, he will firmly ground you.
But the Scriptures I mentioned explicitly quote Malachi 1 to apply it to the coming of John the Baptist and Jesus. Wouldn’t you agree that Jesus came and refined/purified the sons of Levi in the first century, of course a work that continued from there (and will continue until the end)? I’m just having trouble understanding why you see Malachi 3:1-4 as specifically referring to 1914-1919 when the Bible authors themselves applied it specifically to the coming of Jesus and John the Baptist?
Yes but all throughout the Holy Scriptures Jehovah’s prophecies have a meaning for more than one time period.This is just another example of this. Many refer to literal Israel and spiritual Israel. Jehovah’s wisdom is unfathomable to us mere mortals! Isaiah 40:28, 28 Do you not know? Have you not heard?Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, is a God for all eternity.He never tires out or grows weary.His understanding is unsearchable.
Sure, there are some prophecies that have more than one fulfillment, but that’s only when the Scriptures actually explicitly affirm both fulfillments. Where in Scripture do you find that we should be looking for an additional fulfillment for Malachi 3:1-4? The only fulfillment we see mentioned in Scripture is where the inspired writers apply it to the coming of John the Baptist and Jesus. What biblical justification do we have for applying it to anything else?
I’ll put it to you this way: ‘What Biblical proof pointed to John being the messanger to come before the messiah??’ This was only made fact AFTER he started preaching yes? Get my drift??
I agree, but we have the inspired writers to tell us that these various biblical texts (Malachi 3) pointed to John and Jesus. As far as I know, we have no inspired prophets to tell us that we are supposed to look for some secondary or greater fulfillment with Malachi 3. After all, what greater fulfillment could there possibly be than John the Baptist preparing the way for the Messiah to come?
Ahhh the fulfilment of Jesus second coming when he will release mankind from Satan’s grip, FOREVER!! Come on man! You gotta do better than that yes? When Adam and Eve sinned, it may have appeared that Jehovah’s purpose to have an earthly paradise inhabited by perfect humans had been thwarted. But God immediately addressed the problem. He said: “I shall put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”—Genesis 3:15.These were puzzling, cryptic words. Who was this woman? Who was the serpent? Who was the “seed” that would bruise the serpent’s head? Adam and Eve could only guess. Still, God’s words provided hope for any faithful offspring of that unfaithful pair. Righteousness would triumph. Jehovah’s purpose would be realized. But how? Ah, that was a mystery! The Bible calls it “God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom.”—1 Corinthians 2:7. As the “Revealer of secrets,” Jehovah would eventually unveil pertinent details regarding the outworking of this secret. (Daniel 2:28) But he would do so gradually, progressively. To illustrate, we might think of the way a loving father responds when his little boy asks, “Dad, where did I come from?” A wise father provides only as much information as that little boy can grasp. As the boy gets older, the father tells him more. In a similar way, Jehovah determines when his people are ready for revelations of his will and purpose.—Proverbs 4:18; Daniel 12:4.How did Jehovah make such revelations? He used a series of covenants, or contracts, to reveal much. Likely, you have at one time or another entered into some sort of a contract—perhaps to buy a home or to borrow or lend money. Such a contract provided a legal guarantee that the terms agreed upon would be fulfilled. But why would Jehovah need to make formal covenants, or contracts, with humans? Surely, his word is a sufficient guarantee of his promises. That is true, and yet, on a number of occasions, God has kindly backed his word with legal contracts. These ironclad agreements give us imperfect humans an even more solid basis for confidence in the promises of Jehovah.—Hebrews 6:16-18. Perhaps the most dramatic revelation of all came on the night before Jesus’ death when he told his faithful disciples about “the new covenant.” (Luke 22:20) Like its predecessor, the Mosaic Law covenant, this new covenant was to produce “a kingdom of priests.” (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9) However, this covenant would establish, not a fleshly nation, but a spiritual one, “the Israel of God,” made up exclusively of Christ’s faithful anointed followers. (Galatians 6:16) These parties to the new covenant would share with Jesus in blessing the human race! But why does the new covenant succeed in producing “a kingdom of priests” to bless mankind? Because instead of condemning Christ’s disciples as sinners, it provides for the forgiveness of their sins through his sacrifice. (Jeremiah 31:31-34) Once they receive a clean standing before Jehovah, he adopts them into his heavenly family and anoints them with holy spirit. (Romans 8:15-17; 2 Corinthians 1:21) They thus experience “a new birth to a living hope . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1 Peter 1:3, 4) Since such an elevated status is entirely new to humans, spirit-begotten anointed Christians are called “a new creation.” (2 Corinthians 5:17) The Bible reveals that 144,000 will eventually share in ruling redeemed mankind from heaven.—Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1-4. Along with Jesus, these anointed ones become “Abraham’s seed.” (Galatians 3:29) The first ones chosen were fleshly Jews. But in 36 C.E., another aspect of the sacred secret was revealed: Gentiles, or non-Jews, would also share in the heavenly hope. (Romans 9:6-8; 11:25, 26; Ephesians 3:5, 6) Would anointed Christians be the only ones to enjoy the blessings promised to Abraham? No, for Jesus’ sacrifice benefits the whole world. (1 John 2:2) In time, Jehovah revealed that an unnumbered “great crowd” would survive the end of Satan’s system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Multitudes more would be resurrected with the prospect of living forever in Paradise!—Luke 23:43; John 5:28, 29; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:3, 4.
Malachi 3:1-4 is about Jesus’ first coming, not his final coming in judgement. When he came, he judged the unfaithful Israelites and only decades later destroyed the temple. I’m not sure where you can get the idea from the text that there’s supposed to be some greater fulfillment in a small religious group 2,000 years later. If you have biblical proof for a greater fulfillment, please show me in the text.
This is being fulfilled right now! Jesus has been appointed King and now Jehovah is using Jesus to refine true worship! Zechariah 13:9, 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire;And I will refine them as silver is refined,And test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name,And I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people,’And they will say, ‘Jehovah is our God.’” Again, what other Bible based organization can ‘honestly’ say that they are living by the Bible’s standards?? ONLY ONE!! JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES!!! If you truly meditate on this FACT you should clearly see that God is ONLY working with ONE ORGANIZATION in these last days and not MOST as other religious groups will have you believe!?!? Matthew 7:13,14…
Of course, Jesus has always been refining Christians through the work of His Spirit. But that’s not what Malachi 3 is referring to. It is explicitly identified by Matthew, Mark, and Luke to be referring to the coming of John the Baptist and the Messiah. There is simply no reason to create an artificial secondary fulfillment in 1919, which has zero biblical support. JW’s are not living by Bible standards because they are wrong and teach unscriptural ideas like 1914, 1919, and so much more. At this point, I can’t even begin to embrace 1919 as the year Jesus appointed your governing body since you started with the faulty foundation of finding an unbiblical application of Malachi 3. If you can’t prove this, then I don’t see you proving anything else related to 1919. It’s an extremely weak case and I would pray that you’d abandon unscriptural ideas like this.
25 thoughts on “Recent Discussion with a JW”
Hello Mike. You sated above;
However, anytime you want to come back to discuss your Watchtower doctrines (1914,1919, the other sheep, etc.), i’m more than willing to listen to you and interact.
I m more than willing to discuss these issues with you, any or all of them.
Thanks Rotherham, I know you do. You’re the extremely rare exception. If I had the time, i’d spend the time to do more written debates with you. For now, it’ll be limited to interactions in the comments sections as I have the time. I still owe you a reply on the resurrection stuff.
I will post some info about 1919 then in this comment thread.
Here I will address the reasons that we see the prophecy at Malachi 3 to possess a dual fulfillment.
3 “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me.a And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple;b and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.
2 “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye*c of laundrymen. 3 And he will sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and will cleanse the sons of Leʹvi; and he will clarify* them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.
I think we agree that verse 1 refers to John the Baptist as clearing up the way for the coming of jesus in the fist century. But what about the events of verses 2 and 3.
First, the fulfillment of Bible prophecy convinces us that in 1914, Jesus Christ was installed as King of Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom.(if that should also be discussed, I can do that too, either simultaneously with his topic or separately, your choice).
Then, as taught by Matthew 24:45-47, a “ruler” over God’s household would be appointed during this “Parousia” to provide food for this modern household at the proper time, much like the Apostles did in the first century.
History, compared with undeniable biblical truths, identify who were supplying the proper food (truth) at the proper time. Since we believe he prophecy of the wheat and the weeds , in regards to the harvest, began at the Parousia of Christ as well, where a refining process would begin, this matches the scenario found in malachi 3:3 and 4 where the sons of Levi ( the anointed class) are cleansed and clarified. So at this point, the fds prophecy, the Daniel 4 prophecy and the Malachi prophecy converge to present the understanding that we currently have that early on in the Parousia these events would occur. Whether 1919 is the EXACT YEAR is not the issue, it is an educated guess as to when it happened. But regardless, according to prophecy and historic events in the world and within Jehovah’s witnesses, there is no serious reason to doubt the application. Any of these relevant prophecies can be revisited if necessary for further clarification and understanding.
Verses 2-3 refer to what Christ accomplished, ultimately justifying God’s people by his blood onthe cross.
Actually Mike, we are not appealing to as much to a dual fulfillment in Malachi from what I am seeing, as to simply to an extended application beyond the first century due to the wording of verses 2 nd 3, the coming of the lord which would relate to the Parousia of Christ as the focal point of those verses.
Remember the 2015 WT Study about types/antitypes? The Org says they don’t do that anymore. The problem is- they still do it. Go figure…..
Hello elmer, you clearly did not understand that,article
As a JW of 40 years (now inactive and fading) I can tell you that the average JW accepts the year 1919 because they have been told that that is the year when Christ inspected the organisation. The majority are not too concerned whether this can be proved from God’s word. They accept virtually everything that comes from the “faithful & discreet slave”, and if they do not then they are, as you know, seen as trouble causers and possibly apostates.
Also, I would like to ask Humble & Meek to prove his statement “love they have for one another”. Sure, as an example, the majority will not take up arms against one another, but as regards caring for anothers day to day needs this does not happen in most congregations. They will quickly shun another member if they are not attending meetings for any reason other than illness. My daughter asked an elder for the PIN number me to be able to listen to the meeting and she was told that I could not have it because I do not attend. That must be the love Humble & Meek means. Sorry to rant and rave but there is much I could say.
It was nice to read your post. I am also fading after almost 40 years a JW. Pretty surreal. There are many of us who have finally woken up after being in the “truth” for decades.
You are right about still-in JW’s claiming to have “love for one another”. I used to use that line myself!
I have also observed the same unloving attitude in the everyday affairs of the Org.
It really is a mind-blowing experience to have extended myself to help the brothers and sisters for so many years, and when I started missing a few meetings here and there- the shunning was front and center very quickly.
Hope you post again soon Paul,
Elmer and Paul-
What’s interesting too is that a non-ex-JW like myself could get shunned, which the linked video of this post described. While there have been plenty of past occasions where I certainly felt respected, there have been plenty others where I felt far less than loved. This is one reason why I seek an audience of ex-JW’s who feel hated and abandoned, where I can only hope to show them the kind of unconditional love that they deserve. But more than that, since i’m a fallible human, I hope the love of Christ is what is really amplified to my ex-JW friends (though I hope my JW friends find it too!). Thank you both for sticking around and pursuing the truth wherever it may lead. If I can ever be of any help or encouragement, please let me know.
Long time-no talk. As regards 1919, it is interesting to note that in addition to there being no scriptural evidence, there is also no empirical evidence either.
In fact, all one has to do is an honest search about the Org’s leader at the time, JF Rutherford.
If anything, the factual evidence shows that there is zero chance that Christ would have even come close to selecting him to be the “faithful and discreet slave”.
Your brother in Christ,
Hi Elmer & Mike
Thank you for your kind comments. Elmer, I don’t know where you live but here in England it seems to me that JWs really are united the world over, united in their stance of shunning ones like your good self and I. The last two years of fading has taken its toll on the health of my wife and I. So again, thank you for your kind words.
Mike, I have wrote to you a couple of times via email (I’ve used a different email address for fear of being discovered – not sure if my address can be seen) and I have could you to be honest, polite and courteous. you say
“there have been plenty others where I felt far less than loved.” I am sorry that you have been treated like that but it will not surprise ex JWs. They, for the most part have a smug attitude. They are right and have the “truth”and this particularly comes across in the ministry (evengelising work). Please do not misunderstand me, they are sincere as you know. I genuinely loved having Bible studies (or should that be book studies?) with as many as I could. I really mean it when I say, a massive thank you for your encouraging articles. I wish you were here in England or better still, I was in your neck of the woods.
Take care both.
I live in the US. I am starting to get to know faded JW’s from England and other parts of the world via the internet. I’m wondering if there’s any way Mike could give you my email privately?
Glad to hear you are in contact with a number of ex JWs.
If Mike doesn’t mind I am happy for him to give you the email address that has to be given under the comments box. If there are any problems just let me know.
I look forward to hearing from.
Glad to hear you are in contact with a number of ex JWs.
If Mike doesn’t mind I am happy for him to give you the email address that has to be given under the comments box. If there are any problems just let me know.
I look forward to hearing from you
Could you help out Paul and myself by giving us each other’s email in private messages?
Done! Glad to be able to connect you two!
I tried emailing you both, but it got rejected. Each of you send me an email separately to firstname.lastname@example.org so I know I have the right emails
Defending Jehovah’s witnesses
Jehovah’s Witness Advisor
Defending the new world translation
In defense of The New World Translation
Jehovahs’s witnesses united
Foster theological Reflections ((Ph.D. in Theology and Religious Studies and one of Jehovah’s Witnesses).
True Theology by Rotherham. Discussions and debates on many JW subjects.
The 1919/Faithful and discreet slave doctrine is a classic case of WT using eisegesis as opposed to exegesis. Find a scripture (Matt 25:45-47) and apply it to this doctrine. Case closed, no need for further explanation. JWs just accept this stuff, without question as they’re commanded to by their GB. The same thing has happened with the ridiculous ‘overlapping generations’ doctrine. Another attempt at explaining this nonsense has been made this week at their CLAM mid-week meeting.
I notice the so-called ‘humble and meek’ resorted to the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Typical of those without an argument.
As regards the Org, it’s amazing how you mainly only see the nonsense of 1914 & 1919 teaching when you start to wake up.
As regards ‘humble and meek’, Ad hominem is well summed up in those two words. I deduce a case of ipso facto.
The 1914/19 stuff usually initially becomes the focal point for a JW waking up, as it is the core doctrine of WT. If it falls, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. This is happening now as more and more JWs are realising that the foundation is built on sand.
Wt has placed far too much emphasis on eschatology, starting with Russell and the Bible Students and then carried on by Rutherford and his incarnation, the JWs,rather than on Christianity itself.
Amen jimmyG. The overlapping generations nonsense was the last straw for me. As Master Yoda might say ” Woken up I am”.
Good for you Elmer